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 Post subject: Cosimo related oddity???
 Post Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:15 am 
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I've posted this 45 elsewhere before with no substantive results, so i thought I'd try again here.

As far as I know, this 45 was only ever issued on the New York based Zell's label. Now, Zell Sanders did indeed also own the J&S label, but I've never seen another J&S label design that looks anything like this....and certainly never seen a Sanders owned label 'Distributed by Dover'. And neither has anyone else I've shown it to.

What's really crazy is that the dead wax shows it to be a Nashville Matrix pressing.....and off to the side is the tell-tale "86" which shows the account belongs to Dover.

Rightly or wrongly, this raises all sorts of questions in my mind. Not the least of which is: were either, or both, of these sides recorded in N.O.? If not, then what was Cosimo doing sending them out to be mastered/pressed?

According to the dead wax code [which is a simple hand etched 995 A-1 or B-1] "I Feel So Good" is the a-side. On the Zell's release it becomes the b-side, the labels are coded 3377, and J&S Records is listed as distributor.

Ever seen this record before? Does 995 actually fit in the J&S label code? Any thoughts at all?


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 Post Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:30 am 
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Nice find, I've never seen this one before. A mystery indeed.
The letters used for J and S are similar to those for Big Deal, e.g. here:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=238


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 Post Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:26 am 
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I, for one, haven't a clue... at the very least, we'll have to add it to the 'Dover distributed labels' -

(ps: I think it's sweet, the way you write 'Doll Baby' on your 45s... )

-red


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 Post Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:04 pm 
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OK - added the J and S label to the 'Dover Distributes Labels' page.


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 Post Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:20 am 
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While I'm waiting for Red to catch up with all the info we've swamped him with in the past few weeks....I thought I'd concentrate on this little mystery.

I'm attaching a scan of the Zell's issue of the record showing "A Thousand Years From Today" as the a-side. As far as I know, this is the 1963/4 issue of the 45. There's another Zell's issue on a red background from the late 60s which basically looks exactly the same.

And....I've just been informed there is indeed an "original pressing" on J&S that looks nothing like the 45 I've posted....except that the color scheme is the same and all of the label info matches [minus the mention of Dover]. It also appears that the dead wax etching is exactly the same.

Which, if true, either solves the mystery or utterly complicates it, depending on your point of view.

Anyway, I'll have that "original" J&S pressing in my hands very soon and will report on the pertinent info.

While I'm at it, here's a link to the tune. As you'll hear, it's fabulous. And imho, miles different than anything else ever released under the moniker "The Hearts".

https://soundcloud.com/resnikmusicgroup ... el-so-good


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 Post Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:53 pm 
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J&S 995 was originally issued circa 1957. J&S had a very confusing and erratic numbering system. Quite what prompted a Dover distributed release (bootleg?) in the 60s remains a mystery. J&S 3377 as per the scan, was a reissue from September 1970.
The Soulman


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 Post Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:42 pm 
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Thanks for the info. Amazing how hard it is to come by.

As I recall, I ran across a single mention of a J&S issue, dated to '56 or '57, when I was looking into the record a couple of years ago, but with nothing to support that, thought it might be one of those stray bits of misinformation floating around the internet.

However, I did see several bits of info which led me to think there was a pressing on Zell's in 1963...and since I've only ever seen two pressings, I assumed it was one of them. Assumed wrongly it seems.

Does that mean both issues on Zell's that I've seen [the other has a red label] date from around the time of the release of the "I Feel So Good" album [now much sought after]? I may be wrong, but wasn't that around 1970?

To my mind, the Dover pressing would make more sense if Zell Sanders was looking to reissue the 45 in say, 1964, made some kind of regional deal with Cos, and the Dover pressing was the result.

And it is a straight-up Dover pressing. The "86" Dover account number in the dead wax proves it.

Now that I also have what is apparently an original J&S issue in hand, it's interesting to note how similar they are. But there are the [somewhat] expected differences. The J&S pressing wasn't pressed in Nashville, and thus, there is no Nashville Matrix stamp or an "86" cut in the dead wax.

But beyond that, it looks to me like the two masters were cut by the same hand. The J&S pressing is inscribed 955 A/B, while the Dover pressing has 955 A/B-1 in the dead wax. Outside of the obvious addition of the "1", you have to look very closely to see any difference at all.

All of which means very little.

As far as I'm concerned I've still got a mystery on my hands.


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 Post Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:55 pm 
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Quote:
To my mind, the Dover pressing would make more sense if Zell Sanders was looking to reissue the 45 in say, 1964, made some kind of regional deal with Cos, and the Dover pressing was the result.


Well, as far as we can tell, Dover wasn't actually incorporated until late 1965 - the first mention of it in Billboard being in January 1966...

Quote:
Outside of the obvious addition of the "1", you have to look very closely to see any difference at all


Which brings us back around to what we were talking about the other day - that annoying third number that shows up from time to time. For instance, the copy of 'Second Line' that's the freeze frame of the Vimeo video on the home page has it: 129-985-1

When I got my own copy of White Cliffs 200 recently (the scan in the video was of Broven's copy), there was no third number, it's just: 129-985 (in the wax as well). SO - does that indicate just that there was a second pressing - or an actual remaster/replating - or that it was pressed in a different facility - or, like, what?

Any ideas? Thanks!


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 Post Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 5:18 pm 
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Actually, I'm having hard time getting my mind wrapped around that dating for Dover. It's not that I don't believe it, it's more that I [and others as well] have thought it was 63/64 for some time.

Really? Dover was only in operation for two, maybe three, years?

In general, I'm finding that dates need to be pushed back in terms of my own thinking. Ya know, I thought I had a pretty good idea of when certain sounds/styles were likely to have been recorded. Now, I'm not so sure.

The one that really gets me is the Bobby Brown 45 on Eight-Ball [possibly my favorite record ever]. It was recorded in 1966???

Just from the sound of it I would have said '62/'63.


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 Post Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:57 pm 
 
There is actually some sort of logic to the different number series for
J & S - whenever Zell Sanders moved apartments she'd change the
number series, presumably for luck.

The 1650's were issued when she was at 1651 Washington Ave, Bronx
The 1750's when she was at 1754 Anthony Ave, Bronx.
The 44xx's when she was at 1375 Nelson Ave., Bronx
.. I Know, don't ask, I've no idea about that one :)

Maybe if I find more addresses the other series might make sense.

Zells 3377, Zells 3378 and the album (337) are from 1970,
3377 was, as you know, a pair of old tracks , the others were new
recordings by yet another lineup of The Hearts.
If you can find a copy of John Clemente's book "Girl Groups : Fabulous
Females That Rocked The World" it'll tell you more than you
probably ever need to know about The Hearts / Jaynettes. It turns up
on E-bay usually at a reasonable price - I got mine in a sale offer
from the publishers Krause Publications - try Goldmine Magazine's
website.

I'm not sure if I've actually helped you at all, I usually find after
10 minutes dealing with Zell Sanders matters I don't know if I'm
coming or going.


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